Joe Sinnott, CEO, Witting Partners and host of The Energy DeTox Podcast joins Jason Spiess of The Crude Life for a conversation that centers around the transition from summer to the back-to-school season and the challenges of planning and preparations associated with it.
Plus the importance of slowing down and not overreacting to the changes is emphasized, as most day-to-day activities remain the same.
The interview also highlights the significance of vacations in clearing the mind and refocusing.
The two discuss the importance of purging unnecessary emails and reducing clutter to maintain clarity of thought. They express frustration with excessive emails and newsletters from their kids’ school and discuss the need for schools to streamline their communication methods.
Trust is emphasized as a crucial factor in the oil and gas industry, and effective communication and understanding stakeholder needs are seen as essential for building trust and driving positive change in the industry.
After several real life examples, the two agree on the importance of effective communication and finding solutions to workforce challenges.
Joe Sinnott offers his expertise in coaching and leadership development to help oil and gas companies.
Contact Sinnott on LinkedIn or via Witting Partners’ website.
Below is an AI Transcript
Jason Spiess
Yeah, it’s just all right. Let’s head over to the Zoom Line. We have Joe Sinnett from the Marcellus Utica, Appalachia shale play specifically out of that Pittsburgh area. And, how you doing today? Mr Joe Sinnett Witting Partners and the host of the Energy Detox podcast doing.
Joe Sinnott
All right, Jason, we’re clicking along through summer here in Pittsburgh and, well, I guess anywhere in the northern hemisphere. But, yeah, things are, things are, well, thank you very much.
Jason Spiess
You know, one of the things that I want to talk about today is just whether it be energy transition or transition into, I call it that back to school where during the summer everybody’s kinda doing their own thing. Maybe they’re doing a vacation, maybe they’re doing a backyard barbecue. Generally, the, there’s kind of a chaotic, planning time if you’re any to sort of social engineer person.
But starting about, you know, at August 1st I even saw on my calendar, they even called it back to school day, which I was a little bit disheartened because boy, back to school in August, we haven’t even hit the dog days of August yet. But, you know, as well as I do, Joe, when you start going to Walmart and, Target and some of these other, Costcos and see the back to school stuff after the fourth of July and Christmas after ha you know, Easter and I’m sorry, Christmas.
After Halloween, your mind just starts going there, your mind just starts going there. Talk to me about that transitional mind while your body is still in the present if you will.
Joe Sinnott
Yeah, that’s an interesting, observation. And I think, you know, in the world, in the world that I work in and probably in most people’s worlds, everything seems like a constant transition of some sort. And in many cases you’re trying to resist that transition. And I think, certainly if you’re a child, I think resisting the transition to go back to school is, is one such thing.
But even as a parent, Jason, so, you know, beyond simply going into the store and seeing all the back to school stuff. Heck, just this week we’re knee deep in, back to school forms and medical forms and, oh, shoot, we need this thing. We got to call the doctor. Hey, we didn’t know we needed a physical for this kid, for the some, you know, all these various things.
And at some point and, and I think for us it might have been yesterday actually, you know, it could either convince your mind or trick your mind or whatever. That, shoot, you know, we’re running out of time. We have all this stuff to do even though, as you said, you know, we still got a month to go. You know, we’re not even in August yet. but again, once you convince yourself that you’re in the midst of this transition and things are moving full steam ahead. Yeah, it could, it, it starts
to play with you a little bit. So I don’t know if that’s where you were going there, but at least, you know, just hearing you talk about the transition back to school. I know where you are. as I said, knee deep in it here in the Senate household. And, and it’s, it’s real but, you know, it’s always a question of, well, how, how real is it, you know, do we really need to be in this, you know, hyper readiness modes with still whatever, four or five weeks to go?
Jason Spiess
Well, I, I, it’s interesting because in the world of oil and gas or the world of energy in the world of business, it happens all the time. And just this morning, I’m reading an article, the comments from Michael Reagan from the EPA Environmental Protection Agency about the new, $1.5 billion that they’re gonna spend with oil and gas companies for methane reduction.
Well, there’s gonna be a whole new set of rules coming with that too. So this is very relevant in other industries, especially when you’re going through a transitional time because just when you get ready to get set in your Laurels. Well, look at that. Well, if we’re going from soccer to basketball, we’re going from football to whatever, we gotta start deleting these emails and we gotta add these email lists and we gotta start, figuring out practice ends at 6 30 instead of this.
And we gotta do this in the world of business, this government form instead of this government form. And we got to add this spreadsheet. We got to justify this with some pictures now because the insurance company is involved, Joe. I am I, am I just rambling or am I connecting a little bit?
Joe Sinnott
You know, I think you’re not rambling. I, I think actually Jason, you’re articulating what goes on in most people’s brains when they are faced with the type of transition you say, however, I, I think you’re also giving a good example of how important it is sometimes to just slow down and have somebody say, OK, I understand there’s a lot of change that might be coming.
But, you know, again, you could be blunt and say, you know, might you be blowing it, you know, a bit out of proportion. Might you be overreacting a bit or probably more appropriately? And maybe this is more of a coaching question, you know, how much of a change will it really be? You know, at the end of the day, things tend to revert to the mean or whatever.
Right. So at the end of the day, if you’re in a position, whether you’re the head of an oil and gas company and you see these things on the horizon or you’re a leader, you know, maybe a couple of rungs down or you’re just a, you know, a, an individual contributor. It’s critical to avoid the temptation to get more excited and expend more energy than you need to thinking about how different everything is gonna be because odds are 90% of what you do on a day to day basis.
Again, whether it’s leading people developing people, you know, being safe, you know, operating efficiently, all of those things by and large, no matter how many billions of dollars are, infused into the industry to, facilitate some sort of changes. Again, most of what you do on a day to day basis likely isn’t changing. And so you need to make sure that your energy is still devoted to those things.
But again, human nature, like you said, shoot, we’re changing seasons, shoot, we’re doing this well, guess what? You know, hey, you, you know, you brought up sports, Jason, even if you’re transitioning from, you know, soccer to baseball or baseball to basketball or whatever, you know, whatever it is these days with all the indoor sports and everything, it seems like all the seasons are out of whack.
But regardless, Jason, you still need to focus on again, eating right, getting good sleep. If you’re an athlete, you know, you know, staying fit, doing the basics that doesn’t change, even if the season changes and the practice changes and, you know, maybe some of the muscles you’re using changes. So, anyway, again, maybe I’m, I’m the one rambling on now, Jason. But no, you, you hit, clearly, you hit a bit of a, a bit of a nerve there because I deal with people who feel like they are
constantly in transition for good reason. But so many of those people, Jason fall into that trap of, hey, you know, the sky is falling when in reality. Yeah, there might be a couple of raindrops to dance around. But, things are, are largely as they were pre transition when you, when you really dig into it.
Jason Spiess
One of the things that I’ve noticed about transition or just trying to re what, what’s the word I’m looking for? Refi your mind, how about that refix? We’re gonna come up with a new word today is that, you know, vacation, if you will and whether it’s a five minute vacation or a one week vacation, there is importance and there is value in both, for example, a five minute vacation that’s quick meditation break.
And oftentimes get you, you know, refocused very quickly. The, the a week vacation or the three day vacation that’s a tough, tough one because when you go on vacation, Joe, sometimes it takes you two days to wind down and then all of a sudden it takes a day or two to get into vacation mode and then it’s time to go back. You haven’t even had a vacation yet because your body and mind is trying to get un relaxed.
And after being wound up for a year or five years, whatever, it might be, it’s difficult back when I was in publishing, we had mandatory vacations for 10 days. We would make, employees go on 2, 10 day vacations a year. So that way they could really just kick back and get things done and everything and, and, I found that interesting, you know, because it worked and it was an experiment and, we also did where if you traveled for more than two weeks in a month, you get free massages paid for
by the company too because driving and that sort of thing. So anyway, talk to me about the vacations and, and, and how, oh, you know, clearing your mind, maybe it’s reading a book. Have you read any books lately? I mentioned my publishing for example.
Joe Sinnott
Yeah. Well, so a couple of questions in there, I mean, one, I, I had actually been doing some traveling recently so that gave me a chance to read a book because I was traveling alone last week. So that really gave me a chance to, to do some reading. I finished the art of thinking clearly by Rolf Dobell. so, an interesting book sort of relevant to some of these topics because when it comes to vacation, Jason, it’s easy to not think clearly.
So, again, maybe weaving back to your prior question. you know, we make a lot of excuses. Right. Oh, I can’t get away for 10 days. Seven days. Is it right? I got all these other things at work and, you know, excuse, after, excuse on why you can’t, build a, you know, I’ll give you a personal example, you know, when my family and I would go on vacation again, it’s tempting to fill it up with activities for the kids and everything when we know that one having, building in some downtime in the
middle of vacation is important for everybody. Two, sometimes that downtime actually winds up being the most important time. But three, it can be difficult if you’re going away and you’re paying for hotels and everything else to, to schedule time to basically do nothing. So it’s critical to think clearly and, you know, challenge yourself and say, well, hey, you know, you know, paying, paying for a night of vacation, even if we’re not going to whatever theme park or a beach or
whatever, you know, having that time to get away and having that down time to, to relax and recharge. That’s a huge investment. It’s not a waste of money. It’s not, an inefficient use of, your time away, you know, quite the opposite. So I think again, taking that, you know, the, some of the, the stories we tell ourselves or excuses we make, you know, for not having a, a certain type of vacation or, long enough vacation or in some cases, a short enough vacation.
you know, those are the things that you need to, well, many cases challenge yourself on or have somebody to challenge you on lest you find yourself in the typical, vacations exhausting. Oh, I need two or three days to recover. Well, what if you had one day in the middle and then maybe you don’t need as much recovery time and you can hit the ground running and you don’t show up at work, you know, the day after vacation, exhausted.
So, anyway, I mean, we can, we can talk for, for hours about this concept, Jason. But, the same excuses and stories we tell ourselves about building a vacation and navigating a vacation are the same things that happen day to day in our work. you know, in business transitions and transactions and all the various changes in the oil and gas industry.
They’re the same patterns. Jason and you know, the people that can break those patterns and think more clearly by and large are the ones that are going to have sustained success as a former publisher.
Jason Spiess
Was it a hard book or a e-book?
Joe Sinnott
It was a hard book with a soft cover. So it was, yeah. How about that?
Jason Spiess
That makes me feel good. Hey, I got a question for you. Do you, do you purge emails? Do you read emails? Where are you at? With emails? Because that’s, that’s a big part of transition is getting rid of crap. Purging, man. Purging.
Joe Sinnott
I think p I think the pre vacation purge is you know, bring it back to vacation. I think that’s just as important, right? You know, whittling things down and figuring out, you know, what do you, what do you need so that you’re not carrying all this extra weight around literally and trying to move it from place to place. So, anyway, what was your oh emails?
Yeah, I, I’m a, I’m a, I’m a fan of purging. I, I think I’m typically slower than I should be to unsubscribe or filter or whatever because again, we tell, you know, we always make excuses, right. Same thing. Hey, maybe I do need this email that gets sent once a week or once a day or maybe this company that I’ve, you know, haven’t bought anything from in four years.
Maybe they’re gonna send some special that entices me and that I need, obviously those are all ridiculous stories to tell yourself and the best thing you could do is to, is to, eliminate them and when you need to go buy something or when you have a hankering to read some, you know, to, to dive into the news, there’s no shortage of ways to go and, and hunt down that information. So why are you allowing, these companies, these individuals to, to push stuff to you that, you know, there’s,
maybe a, a less than 2% chance that you need and probably, heck, there’s, there’s probably less than a 2% chance that you’ve even opened any of some of those emails in the last three years. So, anyway, again, a great question because that’s the type of stuff that yeah, can help you not think clearly. And the need to purge is, is real for I know myself, my family and probably most of the people that I encountered in my, my day to day life, Jason.
Jason Spiess
Well, next question I have is more of a, I’m not sure if it’s an old man shouting at a cloud or if it’s what it, what it is, but it’s an observation to start. But again, it might appear like I’m just someone shouting at a cloud or sitting at a bar stool complaining. But I do believe, and I, I just want your opinion on this because you’re a parent more than anything.
You’re also a professional. So I respect both sides of your opinion. But with my kids school I need a weekend to read those emails. These things are war and peace, man. I mean, we’re talking, I can’t believe how long they are. And I’m thinking, ok, are they trying to do like a magazine or a newspaper? Because there’s things in these newsletters I, I didn’t ask for, I don’t need, I don’t care about, you know, I mean, it just seems like they just keep adding and adding and adding, like it
started out as a nice shelf. But over the course of 5 to 10 years it’s turned into just something that you need. I mean, it’s a full time job sometimes to read my kids’ schools newsletters. do you have that issue, in any part of your life where it just seems like they’ve just been adding and adding and so it’s overwhelming. We almost, it’s anna, it’s analysis of paralysis too much. Just ok. Got it.
Joe Sinnott
Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I certainly have that exact experience when it comes to schooling and again, like I said, we’re, we’re, I think in the thick of it now where you’re getting all these emails, you’re getting all these requests, all these things you need to do during the school year itself. Jason, as you said, it could be overwhelming some of these super long emails.
But what’s interesting going back to, you know, maybe some of the things you brought up at the beginning. It’s interesting to watch the schools adapt over time and, and almost transition from, hey, we’re gonna try to consolidate as much communication as possible into, you know, just one weekly email versus, you know, sending stuff ad hoc.
Well, but guess what, you know, when they were sending three reminders that, I don’t know, you know, there’s gonna be pajama day at school when they were sending those three reminders over and over again. Hey, guess what? I was less likely to miss it. My wife was less likely to miss it. Whereas now when they’re consolidating again, if I’m not interested in reading war and peace, now I’m more likely to miss it.
So it’s, you know, watching this Evan flow, it’s the same thing that happens in companies. Right. Jason, you know, if somebody gets an idea, an idea to be more efficient or more clear or, you know, get the message out there and it seems good at first there’s a little bit of momentum and then, hey, you know, you start seeing the downside so you adapt and it’s the same patterns that seem to, you know, come through organizations or schools or families every, every couple of years.
And it’s funny, it’s the same cycle. It’s the same ebb and flow. and again, do I have a magic solution for it? No, you asked me for my opinion. I don’t know if that was an opinion. but, you know, certainly as a coach, it’s, hey, acknowledge these cycles lay out these cycles and, and at least don’t pretend like they don’t exist so that you don’t find yourself going through the same cycles unconsciously or unwittingly and, and, you know, missing opportunities to find that solution.
That’s maybe, you know, the, the best, I hate to use the word balance, but the best balance between the war and peace school emails and the, you know, consolidated war and peace emails and then the, four emails a day about every minute thing from, from lunch to, to clothes and pick up times and half days and snow days and everything else.
Jason Spiess
Can you coach me a little bit on professional jealousy?
Joe Sinnott
Professional jealousy, huh?
Jason Spiess
Well, I, I, I’ll give you an example. Ok, I, I, first of all, I’ve got two confessions. One is earlier when I gave the example of, transitioning. I used sports and I said soccer first for some reason and I honestly, I didn’t even know, I don’t know what season soccer is in so I couldn’t transition into the next sport. So I just said basketball because I knew that was a winter sport.
and I was a baseball and basketball and football and, you know, that kind of track and all that different stuff. but what it, so I didn’t play soccer, I wasn’t aware of it, you know. and then the other one is I, when I get these emails from the school and I see them just adding and doing these other things. And I came from publishing. You know, I’ve worked in the media literally, since I was 10 years old, when I was 10 years old, I be I was a newspaper carrier that had to go collect money for
the newspaper. So I was in the distribution circulation department that I always joke all those highly paid editors, writers and publishers, they did all the work and they relied on us kids to go and bring it across the goal line. Make sure that we were the ones that delivered it to the door. And then we had to go collect the money and everything.
So it, it’s, I, I know the industry pretty well is what I’m trying to say. And so when I see some of these emails come and, and they do, they ad hoc and they, they kind of use it as their own little experiment. And one example is as if they’re doing a fundraiser, I know what marketing is. I, I know what frequency is. So when I see a school sending out seven emails in three days trying to get money. Well, boy, my, my school is spending time doing that and they’re using their established trust,
which is I just signed up for the lunch news. I just wanted to know if it was sloppy Joe Day on Monday. Now all of a sudden I got seven emails coming to me in two days because the drama kids need money. So you see what I mean to where I have a little bit of professional jealousy that, distribution gets used at organizations for just whatever people want at times it seems. And the school is just kind of a loose example with that. But do you understand what I mean by that, Joe?
Joe Sinnott
Well, I understand the scenario you’re talking about, I guess, from a jealousy standpoint, I mean, how does that?
Jason Spiess
It would take, it would take me, five years to go get 250,000 followers that are active, whether it be through, subscriptions of selling daily newspapers or it would get people to sign up for emails. So that’s what I’m saying is that, there’s an established trust that people have with the government or a bank or even certain corporations to a certain degree.
And so it’s almost like a bait and switch in, in a way, you know, and I hate saying that term because I don’t want to turn this into a completely cynical old man shouting at the end of the bars. But, like you said, there’s some professional jealousy there because I’ll give you another example. The, the Bismarck Tribune is a, our state’s largest newspaper.
And, another one is, the week that is a magazine that, I used to subscribe to, I bet I get four or five emails a day from them asking for subscriptions for a dollar $1. And that’s because they, it’s hard to get subscriptions. It’s hard to get people that are actual users that, you know, will, are verified because anybody can like something but somebody gonna give you, you know, business, somebody gonna give you time and energy.
So it’s interesting, like I said, there’s a professional jealousy there because I know it takes 3 to 5 years sometimes to get that amount of sales or that amount of distribution built and when someone can just use it ad hoc, there’s a lot of professional jealousy there. And so, it’s interesting because when you try to talk to some people in leadership, they don’t understand it.
And that’s bothers me too. So, anyway, I didn’t want to get too cynical here. I was just more of the professional jealous guy, Joe. I didn’t, I hope I didn’t bore you too much with that example.
Joe Sinnott
But no, you didn’t bore me. I mean, I think so. There’s, I mean, there’s two angles there. You said, you know, coaching, you know, my mind goes to obvious examples of people that I work with who, you know, might not realize the power they have or the, the how would you put it? You know, the, the email lists if you will, that they have and how they might be abusing it or how they might not, might be under utilizing it.
And how, yeah, you know, you know, a lot of people don’t have that luxury and what that means, Jason is when, you know, I mean, the simplest example is, you know, when somebody has, you know, maybe dozens or hundreds of people under them, you know, they don’t realize that when they go a meeting, when they send an email that, you know, again, I think they realize it to a certain extent, but they might not realize the full power they have that they can reach out at any given time to this
large group of people and those people by and large are gonna listen, they, they’re gonna, they’re gonna see it a huge percentage of it or, you know, actually they might even be inclined to take some action because of this individual. And again, it seems so simple, Jason, but when you put it in those terms and say, look, you, you have something that your average person, your average Jason out there doesn’t have even within the company and then that segues into.
All right. Well, you know, are we using it as effectively as possible? And, you know, are we communicating with the right frequency or, you know, with the right level of detail or even the right structure in some cases? So, I mean, that from a business standpoint, Jason, I mean, that’s, that is a common theme that I work on with individuals, you know, when it comes to, even within an organization, again, we’ll transition to you, Jason, you know, within an organization when people
feel like they don’t have that visibility, you know, they don’t have that audience, you know, the type of audience that again, you would love to have to, right to send out a maybe not a fundraising email, like a kids’ school, but, you know, at the same time. Right. I mean, yeah, that’s, you know, that’s, that’s a power that in some circumstances, it’s kind of just handed on and in other circumstances, it takes years to develop.
But for an individual who is sitting there jealous because they don’t have that reach. The first question is, well, all right, you probably don’t need to reach 250,000 people or whatever. You know, what is, is the message that you want to get out there and most importantly, who is your audience? Let’s, let’s start there instead of just playing the statistics of again, just using your example, Jason, if you have this, you know, a couple 100,000 person audience or maybe, you know,
a couple 1000 person audience in, in the case of a school. you know, what, what percentage of people are really paying attention and taking action, unless they’re bombarded 10 times a day because that’s not, again, that’s not, that’s, that’s likely not what the individual, potentially jealous person or professionally jealous person in an organization wants.
What he or she wants is, you know, a message to get out there or a little bit of visibility. And for, you know, two or three people probably to pay attention and listen to what they have to say. So that’s, that’s the first thing Jason is. All right. So what, who is your audience? Is there a more effective way to, to get to your target audience instead of just blanketing them from a, from a traditional marketing standpoint and hoping that, you know, you get a handful of clicks.
So again, I’m, I mean, now I’m kind of gravitating into your territory when it comes, I think to, you know, to marketing in the world that you’ve been in for decades. But internally Jason, that’s the, that’s the line of questioning and that’s the you know, that’s, that’s how I help people think more clearly when it comes to. All right, instead of being there jealous, what do you really want? What do you really need to do?
Jason Spiess
Well, and where I’ll tell you kind of the scenario where it came about because it’s, it really talks about what we talked about and then what I think the, the next conversation is really, so there was a group of us parents and somebody was just kind of mentioning about how I think I, I think it was the drama club that was looking for some fundraising or something along those lines and not some grant didn’t come through or I can’t remember, but it was, you know, the kids need shoes.
you know, this is, this is, over dramatic and that sort of thing. And so the frequency is what caught my attention, but one of the, one of the mothers was just kind of complaining because, well, her kid, I think he wrestles or plays hockey, one of the programs that just doesn’t get a lot of attention. So now they want to use that email base. And so, I mean, you see what I mean to where now all of a sudden some people are starting to say whoa, this isn’t fair.
And if you’re the employee, you’re supposed to actually know better with policies and you’re supposed to know better because these are the types of things that come up. Now you get parents that say, well, our kids are having a garage sale for new uniforms. Why aren’t you putting that in the email? And then all of a sudden now you have five different administrators that have to have a meeting and how much resource and time is being wasted on that.
So to me that, that’s the one angle, the other one is that the other people really didn’t know because they stopped reading the school’s emails because there was just too many of them. So what ended up happening is the one mother was pretty much, you know, on, on the PT A. So she was a decision maker and the other people were just busy. They were working two jobs or, you know, there’s normal people.
And I thought, oh, this is really interesting now, so we’ve gotten to the point where we saturated our own market so much that the average person isn’t paying attention. So when abuse happens, you can’t see that. So the conversation just turned into trust, like, what can we trust from our school anymore? Do what do we even want to open the email? Like because so and so’s mother works on the administrator.
So that’s why they got the drama stuff. And do you see what I mean? It turns into a drama. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah, a lot to unpack there that basically it comes down to when you don’t follow a lot of the procedures that were set up originally because whether you don’t know, it creates a lot of unnecessary work. It doesn’t become very sustainable. And at the end of the day, what we’re talking about is trust Joe.
Joe Sinnott
Yeah. And within an organization, Jason, the thing that I see and this is all industries, but I think oil and gas is, is, is as good of an example as any is that trust seems to fade when the gap between the written rules and the unwritten rules widens. So what you just shared, right? You there’s definitely written rules about communication and you know, using, directories and the list.
There’s, there’s no, there’s no question that, you know, your school or school district has some rules around it and there’s also no question. It sounds like that, you know, those rules are being, flouted and that’s when trust starts to erode. That’s when people say nothing matters and it’s up to a leader and again, it’s not always easy, of course, but it’s up to a leader to step in and say, all right, what are the rules?
What are the written rules? Nobody can argue with that. Whether the rules make sense or not, that’s a different animal. What is our starting point? And how have we deviated from those that is as, you know, unemotional, you know, nonpolitical as you can get, right? What’s in place and how have we deviated? But again, you know, again, I mean, the energy industry, my focus is energy.
I host a podcast called the Energy Detox. A lot of energy is expended when leaders are afraid to take that approach and instead try to dance and spend some time bridging gaps, you know, bridging those gaps between the written and the unwritten rules. That is a lot of energy. Jason and very few people are, are able to, to do that successfully because once you start dancing and trying to, trying to bridge that gap, like I said, trust, trust goes away.
That was great that that is the perfect word. You brought up there, Jason trust and it’s not just trust of, you know, obviously whether the, the data in the email is correct or not, there’s no, you know, we, we’re gonna assume that, you know, everything is factually correct but it, yeah, it’s trust of, hey, what are the biases in there? You know, why is this person harassing me more?
Why are they, violating the rules? Why do they find it necessary to abuse the directory? And then what’s the next logical conclusion? I don’t care, I’m not gonna read it. And now there’s a, there’s even more wasted energy on, you know, every side of the equation. So, yeah, you hit the nail on the head. Jason. I mean, we can talk about specific examples that I see from a coaching standpoint.
But that’s, I mean, that is a ubiquitous problem and sometimes many times it’s ones that leaders, they don’t really, they obviously, I mean, I’m telling leaders to go ahead and step in and, and solve the problem. But obviously, the first thing is, you know, are they even aware that this is going on within the organization?
Jason Spiess
I got a question for you because, you know, I, one of the issues that I’ve had with the oil and gas industry is dealing with a lot of leadership is just trying to get them to see the, the public relations issue that’s happening. And, you know, the, the methane part and all these other things. But I think a lot of it has to do with whether it be trust or just transparency and, and some of those things and talk to me a little bit about, you know, what you see that could help the industry
leadership. Right now because just, you know, this morning I, I pulled up some news and I here’s been the week and this is why I bring it up. Let me give you a little context, Joe here because I don’t want to seem like I’m bashing on the industry, but it’s, it’s one of those things where when you’ve been trying to educate and, and, and you’ve been talking to a brick wall and then all of a sudden those same people come back and try to educate you on it.
It’s like, OK, I’m not really sure we’re connecting here, but I had a few calls this week that they, they were service companies and the hr departments were trying to get the ownership to go a different direction away from oil and gass because of some of the new, just whatever hr stuff is. And so this, that was an interesting dynamic because now it’s like they’re trying to go through the hr side of things, whether it be through ESG or whatever the, the new acronym will be for ESG.
But also we had a AAA oil company that reached out and was, picking our brains a little bit on some of the public relations things too. And I told them trust is the new commodity. I said trust is the new commodity. I said it’s, it’s an intangible com commodity and it’s, public relations has always profited and made its money off of intangible commodities. Whether it be, exposure or, trust or, you know, sizzle, short term gain equals long term pain doesn’t seem to work.
But that is a way, you know, it’s a quick sale, going out of business sales, you know, that type of thing. So, just you coach a lot with the energy industry. So where are you seeing leadership, taking the industry? And what do you see when I say the words, trust is a commodity now?
Joe Sinnott
Well, I agree. I, you know, I’m, I’m sitting here thinking as you talk and yeah, I’m pride myself on being able to play devil’s advocate, Jason. But yeah, I mean, I’m failing to poke arguments in your, your claims that, yeah, trust is a, a commodity and an important commodity, albeit an intangible commodity. when it comes to, you know, when it comes to leadership’s role in building trust with the community because you just mentioned that right?
You know, the outside, opinions of oil and gas, the outside trust or distrust of oil and gas. You know, I see, I see, I see a pretty broad spectrum of leaders out there in the industry right now, on the operator side, on the service side and midstream side and, you know, some I think are going through the motions quite frankly. And you know, they’re content with the standard talking points that, you know, try to rebut some of the arguments, some of the the entities out there that, that
don’t have trust in the industry. And obviously, you know, you’re not gonna change their mind with talking points. So I think from a leadership standpoint, both from an internal personnel standpoint. So again, you mentioned human resources, I think it starts Jason with moving away from talking points that people are going to dismiss, that people are not going to trust and moving towards more of this coaching approach where you’re asking questions, you’re getting your
audience talking about what they want long term, you know, what they want, they want stability, right? They want clean air, they want to know there’s, there’s a future for, you know, their families and, and for their Children, they want to know that we’re doing everything we can do to protect the earth. And, and certainly, if you’re here in the west, in the, in the United States, you know, sort of protect our way of life, right?
Know that that prosperity is, is gonna continue and, and be a real achievable thing. That’s what people want, but you need them to be saying it in their own words so that you can reframe your, you know, talking points if you will and put it in the words of your audience. That’s what effective leaders do. Jason and in the oil and gas industry as cliche as it sounds the leadership that’s out there or particularly those who are in community affairs and government relations and all of
this, you know, if they’re truly amassing what the their constituents, what their stakeholders want in their own words and not short sighted, we want, you know, we want you to, we want you to stop drilling for oil and natural gas and shut down your operations. I mean, I’m talking, hey, what do people want and they want reliable energy, right?
They want clean energy, all the things that are in the, you know, the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals, right? People want the same darn things. So why aren’t leaders getting the words and the the thoughts and the desires of their stakeholders and turning those into talking points instead of assuming what their audiences want from a, from an environmental standpoint, from an environmental justice standpoint.
You know, one of the biggest mistakes that I, I see and quite frankly, I wasn’t looking for it until a couple of months ago when I was at a conference and I heard somebody speak on this. But one of the biggest mistakes I see now in leaders and companies in general is that they go into communities and they assume what their stakeholders want. That is a major flaw, Jason, those stakeholders might not give a hoot about your talking points regarding jobs and the economy as important as
that is. Obviously, I’m on board with all that, you know, you know what they want sometimes a grocery store, right? So put all your eggs in that basket, use their words and tie back to how the oil and gas industry, you know, from a, from a micro level, you know, within a community or certainly from a macro level supports their need for affordable accessible groceries.
And again, maybe I’m off on a tangent here, Jason. But again, I think, you know, you, maybe you struck another nerve on this, on this conversation thread. But that’s what builds trust if I hear you talk and I repeat back to you something I heard, you know, not from a, from a gimmicky standpoint, but I demonstrate that I heard you and now I’m working towards that and, and, and here’s how I have been working towards it and how I can do that better.
That builds trust. Jason, not just pushing out talking points to you and just get, you know, sending more and more information in some cases, more and more money that, that, you know, sending money to people doesn’t build trust.
Joe Sinnott, Jason Spiess
So anyway, last time you on my soapbox here, that’s ok.
Jason Spiess
I was gonna let you finish and, and everything because I, I have a, a very good example that I think you might understand or relate to. And have you seen that new Michael Jordan movie called Air with Matt Damon? No, I have not. So it’s available on Amazon Prime and it’s it’s free for Amazon Prime members. And I would, I would invite everybody in the oil and gas industry to watch this because it shows leadership because remember, are you getting a leadership award or a follow ship award?
Anybody can just take orders and do that? But who can be a leader? What Matt Damon did was actually change the industry. So he was a guy that went around and, and scouted people for shoe contracts and he ended up wanting Michael Jordan. And it’s interesting because they go through the draft picks and go through each different person and talk about, you know, Adidas was the number one brand and everybody wanted to go to Adidas.
And Nike was just kind of more for, I think running shoes is where they made their money at the time. And the movie is about Michael Jordan’s mother, Michael that you don’t actually see his face in the entire movie. It’s just it, in fact, you don’t even, he doesn’t talk until the very end. He’s he, I think he has the last line in the movie but out outside of that because it’s not about him.
But the movie shows how, when you listen, you can advance ideas if you’re just going through the motions, if you’re just using a formula that someone else uses and works. So you’re doing a formulaic method of this business. Well, then you’re gonna keep chunking out the same garbage in garbage out in the beginning. It was great. But eventually the good stuff does composition down and becomes garbage.
And that’s when you need new ideas and we can go back to the Aqueducts. If you need examples, there’s new ideas that come along and they, they rejuvenate a marketplace. And the idea that came through the movie Air essentially was a merchandise license contract for, for Michael Jordan. Before then, the athletes didn’t have them. They just got a flat market fee and the, and, and the shoe company made millions.
But what happened was is leadership came through and the reason leadership came through is because it empowered others, good leaders empower. And that takes trust. And in the movie Michael Jordan’s mother said back to the Nike executive, my son is gonna be wearing the shoes that you’re gonna be selling. If my son doesn’t produce, we, you don’t, you know, basically you don’t produce, it’s a two way Trust Street and that’s the other part of, part of trust is that it has to be a two way
street otherwise it just becomes a dictatorship, I guess. I don’t know. I, I wasn’t prepared for this much speaking, Joe. So let’s anyway, talk to me a little bit about that. You know, the, the disruption and trust and how leaders sometimes you have to communicate with your bosses. Almost not in an adversarial way, even though it might seem that, but you have to have a trust with your own internal leadership in order for a leader to really empower others. Am I making sense, Joe?
Joe Sinnott
Yeah, you made a lot of sense and I, I don’t know how much I really need to add on to that. Jason, other than to say, I think at the end, what you hit on was the importance of communicating upwards. And I think you and I have talked in the past about, you know, how a good chunk of, of the time that I spend working with individuals in new oil and gas industry is spent on managing up.
And a lot of that is I mean, it’s all communication and it’s finding, you know, the most effective ways to communicate, especially in circumstances where the trust isn’t already there. And that’s not easy, which again speaks to the importance of people who are already up if you will, you know, senior leaders, you know, making sure that they have those, those forums and those those, those pathways, those aqueducts if you will, so that information can flow to them.
And many leaders I work with Jason, they, you know, they think that those pathways, those aqueducts, those channels are in place and optically, you know, on paper, they, they might be there. But this is why we’re talking about, you know, the intangibility, as you said earlier of trust, if the trust isn’t there, and people don’t want to use those channels that they’re afraid to use those channels for some reason, that’s, that’s disastrous.
And again, it, you know, when, when I go into an organization, that’s one of the areas of I mean, ignorance is a, is maybe a strong word, but we’ll use it ignorance. You know, it’s ignorance of senior managers who again think that everything is structured fine, but they don’t realize that people are afraid to use those structures in the way that, you know, they’re intended to be used and it comes down to trust and then again, the next level there, Jason of course is, well, why is that?
And what can we do to shift that? And some of that comes back to what we talked about earlier, which is, you know, understanding what your stakeholders, what your constituents, what your employees, you know, actually need from you as a leader. And actually, you know what, let me add one more thing. And now that I’m again, you know, we get going to these conversations, we never know where we’re gonna go.
But, you know, I’ve had some recent conversations with people, you know, stakeholder type conversations. and you know, one question that I often ask of, of stakeholders. So in other words, you know, people that are, are stakeholders of an individual that I’m coaching, right? I mean, they could be, they could be peers, they could be superiors, they could be contractors, customers, employees, whatever.
But one of the questions I often ask is all right, you know, you know, what else would you want from this individual? You know, what ideally, you know, again, it doesn’t matter what you say to me, you know, what would you want from this person? And it’s amazing how many individuals really don’t have a quick answer there. You know, they, they think through it and typically there’s a really good answer or several answers on the back end.
But, you know, the leaders need to be asking that question regularly and not assuming that they’re already delivering what their employees need. Again, it sounds so simple, if not cliche Jason. But I, I’m amazed still in, in my role as a coach when I asked that question that, you know, it, it gets really, it gets people dreaming and thinking and, and there’s a lot of things that they have not articulated to, you know, the, the, the person that they, they need to share these, these
thoughts and desires with. So, again, I, I don’t know where we are in this conversation, but it definitely is all under the umbrella of trust Jason and asking the right questions and understanding what your, your audience wants.
Jason Spiess
And I think you just brought a full circle because we started basically about how do you get into a new rout routine? I could have said, how do you get off one merry go round and into another merry go round or how do you go from one roller coaster to another in my world? The roller coaster is the merry go round. It just has more turns and flips. So you don’t realize you’re on a merry go round. But at the end of the day, you know, you know, that rat race started, I think as a rat race because
apparently rats must chase each other in circles. I’m not sure. I’m not even sure. But it, that’s what we started with is, you know, transitioning from one routine to another. And what we’re doing as an industry is the same thing with this energy transition. So, it’s, it’s interesting that we’ve come full circle on that. how’s business, by the way, Joe, everything going? Ok. Are you looking for new clients or are you full or what?
Joe Sinnott
Yeah. Well, speaking of transitions, that was an abrupt transition.
Jason Spiess
I was, I was gonna ask you and that’s, you know, kind of, I wanted to just hammer home that we’ve come full circle and, you know, and, and what, what are we all doing here? Everybody works. I mean, if you, if you’re keeping if, whether you’re keeping a house or you’re not, I mean, I mean, I’m sure you could help out a homemaker is a homemaker.
That’s, that’s not, that’s unisex. Right. Because I know a lot of stay at home dads. I was a stay at home dad and I worked full time, but I was a stay at home dad. so II, I could have a, I, I could have, I have a coach come over and help me. But anyway, are you looking for? I’m not saying you’re looking for that kind of work.
Joe Sinnott, Jason Spiess
But, well, I do, I mean, that is a big, yeah, I mean, I, I’d say, I mean, the short answer is yes.
Joe Sinnott
And, and again, this is a conversation I was having with my wife yesterday, how it is a full time job just managing, you know, the paperwork and the phone calls, like I said to the doctors and all this other stuff just to, you know, just to get your kids, you know, safely enrolled in school for, for the following year, let alone layering on camps and activities and, you know, everything else that’s going on.
So the short answer is, yes, I think homemaker is, is still an acceptable term. yes, homemakers can use coaching as well. And, you know, while, a lot of, you know, a lot of my pro bono coaching, is, is directed towards that. Again, it’s, it’s real, it’s, it’s getting out of, it’s, you know, thinking clearly it’s, you know, trying to be more efficient.
It’s, getting rid of your, you know, the, the stories you’re telling yourself about the things you need to do and trying to, to push those aside, whether they’re related to, again, budgets or schedules or, you know what, you’re serving your kids for dinner again. So many stories that, that parents, working parents, stay at home, parents will, whatever, so many stories that parents tell themselves that are really not necessary.
Jason. Right. Oh, you know, oh, I, I need, you know, my kids need to have a salad for dinner. Well, guess what? No, tell you what, if, what’s best for the family today might be mcdonald’s. I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s it. But if you get into this trap where I’m never gonna feed my kid in mcdonald’s. And again, we can talk about health at a different time, you know, that, what do they call a limiting belief?
Right? Or whatever you wanna call it? somebody needs to be there sometimes to just say, hold on. Why, why does it matter who says you need to do XY or Z? And that same line of questioning, Jason applies equally to your home life, your personal life and to your professional life as far as a professional life. So, you know, my day job and, you know, where I actually, generate revenue to to pay the bills to send the kids to camp and school and have vacations.
Yeah, things are clicking along. you know, a lot of planning, looking ahead to 2024. So certainly for individuals and companies that are out there looking to help their people think more clearly, looking to help their leaders build some of that trust that you were talking about. Always welcome conversations about the most effective way to do that.
And quite frankly, Jason, I love talking about all of the different leadership development, resources that are out there and available to our industry. Obviously, I like distinguishing my own unique blend of oil and gas focused coaching, resources and resources that are built on experience and technical expertise and all of the all of the corporate fun that is married now to my world as a professional coach.
So again, I like having those conversations if for no other reason than to help individuals, especially those in human resources departments that are inundated with all kinds of options. Again, I like having conversations about, you know, what they’re currently doing and, and what they’re employing and you know what again, what they’re looking to accomplish, what results they’re looking to accomplish and then you back into the resources that make the most sense.
So, again, fortunately, things are clicking along but always happy to have those conversations with folks and always enjoy conversations with you of course, here on the crew life, you got time for one more pop quiz one. Oh, I always got time for you, Jason.
Jason Spiess
This one I believe is, is really very relevant with timing. So a lot of times what you and I will talk about transcends time and your advice, I believe will transcend time. But I believe my example may not so much, and it might, but it, it, it might in other areas. So do, do you have a workforce issue out in your neck of the woods?
Joe Sinnott
Oh, yeah, 100 percent.
Jason Spiess
Ok. So we’ve got a workforce issue here. There’s a workforce issue down in the state of Texas. Colorado has one. Wyoming has one. It just seems like America in every state has a workforce issue, right? And so there’s a lot of people trying to solve that problem and I’ve gotten at least 15 phone calls from, it doesn’t matter what company it is, an oil company or a service company or a health care company really.
they reached out to and honestly a health care company reached out to me because of the crude life with the oil and gas. They wanted to just find out about ethical energy basically. And what some of the hr department has brought to the attention of some people in management is that, you know, basically that, we need to, what, what is, what is the word, be competitive in hiring, be competitive for hiring.
And my question every time to the person who was trying to communicate with their hr department who was getting, you know, information given to them from workforce people. I asked them, I said, well, how many applicants have said this have asked, have said that thing, you know, that they will never work for an oil and gas company if or they won’t do business with anybody who does business with an oil and gas company.
Because that was some of the the comments. How do you battle? Because to me that’s talking points. I said, well, in the media, we call those talking points that you give somebody quick things to say and it starts the process and then you fold it and layer in with new kinds of you know, inundation of, of different mediums and that sort of thing.
So how internally whether it’s coming from sales and business development, you know, with excuses and that why things aren’t working in the marketplace or observations or hr departments or even the boss watching the news, sometimes the boss is the worst with the talking points comes in. You know, I just saw the news that we’re gonna do this now.
So II I don’t want to necessarily pick out hr but that’s where the recent timing has come up through the human resources departments via workforce development. And I saw that an interesting way to shape the economy and that’s how I looked at it and I, I don’t necessarily want anybody else to look at it that way. I’m talking to you more from a, a sound bite coach, management if you will, because that’s the hardest thing going right now, man, whether you’re, you’re in hr or the boss,
you’re getting inundated with sound bites. Jeez, the gas pump gives me gas Steve Harvey’s giving me sound bites at the gas pump. So, anyway, sorry, I went a little long with that question.
Joe Sinnott
No. Was there a question in there, Jason? I don’t know if I had,
Joe Sinnott, Jason Spiess
so I think, I mean, are you asking the, the sound bite management?
Jason Spiess
Because, you know, it’s hard to really have conversations with people who only know 20% of the truth or not, not even the truth. 20% of a context. Just start there just there 20 you know, you, you have, you have people coming in that are in leadership roles and they’re doing the right thing by bringing it in and I don’t know if it’s almost that it’s too quick or, I don’t know, I’m not sure what it is but it just seems like that, that sound bite.
You know, we, we’ve mentioned that word a few times. So, that’s why I keep going back to it because that’s what I called it too when, they brought that up where, you know, like one company, for example, like you said, several actually where their, their human resources was concerned about doing business with the oil and gas sector. And they’re like, and you know what they, their, their people would say things along the lines of is like, why we’re trying to help, you know, like we’re
just trying to make them better. So why, why would that be a negative? I found that an interesting answer too but I, I’m thinking more of just the management of the sound bite communication because a lot of times it just, it seems like you’ve got groups that are trying to out sound, bite each other or something. I don’t know, it’s just, it’s so much time is devoted to it. Got it.
Joe Sinnott
So I, I think, and I don’t know if this will answer your question or not. Jason, but, you know, talking about sound bites, talking about some of the internal and external conversations and use of sound bites. I think one of the most effective methods of, of turning those sound bites into things that might actually resonate with people or it might actually carry more weight and trust and, and meaning is having a third party to play devil’s advocate.
And basically, here’s my, here’s my idea for linkedin, you know, throw up a you know, have an automatic nausea. emoji, you know, you can always paste one in, but it’s almost like instead of the like button or the laugh button or the heart button or the support button or, what’s the other one? Celebrate button? It’s almost like, you know, you wanna throw up the, you know, the little nausea button of, of somebody vomiting.
You know, when you hear one of those sound bites that just does not add value. So, the question is who in your organization has the authority to do that? Because, you know, if you’ve got a multibillion dollar organization and you’ve got a sizable human resources department, and again, I again, I work with companies that the human resources departments go from ridiculously spread thin and underfunded to, we’ll just say, you know, go to the other direction, you know, so
regardless of where you are, if you’re the head of that company and you’re, you know, these people are doing their best or they’re doing what they’re paid to do, you know, you’re not gonna be the one throwing up vomit emojis necessarily. But who in your organization is saying, hey, look, this doesn’t serve us. This doesn’t make sense to your point.
You know, if we’re running away from oil and gas, how does that actually serve the people that, you know, we’re there to support the, the human beings on this planet. How does running away from oil and gas actually, you know, help human beings thrive and flourish. It doesn’t, and to have an independent voice. And again, this, you know, I’m that that’s not my primary job.
Of course, Jason. But when I’m in organizations and I’m working with individuals on messaging on marketing. I, again, I work very closely with a lot of human resources departments. The good thing is I’m able to throw up gently and tactfully that vomit emoji. And so when, you know, for example, you talk about hiring, you know, issues, you know, when it doesn’t seem like a company’s messaging and, and marketing and targeting is, you know, getting anywhere or certainly is no
different from their competitors. It’s a simple question for me to say, OK, what’s your, you know, what is your short term hook and what is your long term hook for employees in real terms? Because if it’s hey short term, you’re gonna like the work you do, you’re gonna like this environment, you’re gonna like this culture. Because again, if you’re a human resource person, say the people that I engage with day to day, like what they do in the short term right now on day one out of the
gate and oh, by the way, long term, we believe here at our company that if you spend five years with us, especially early on in your career, you are going to earn million and a half more dollars over the next 2030 years than you would at some other company. We firmly believe that. Is there a little bit of arm waving? Sure. But we’ve tried to do that math because that’s how strongly we believe in the value of being here at this company.
Long term for you. So short term, long term, you’re not gonna find, you know, our balance anywhere else. Now, that’s, that might not be true at the company you work for and that’s a whole different animal. But you know, you speak in those terms to somebody you don’t have to. Again, there’s no, there’s no talking points. I mean, even the word culture can get a little fluffy. So you just short term, long term, this is what we do.
It’s not vomit, inducing Jason. It’s real. It tugs at what people want, whether they articulate it or not. And if you’re from a human resources, standpoint or talent development standpoint or, or talent acquisition, recruiting standpoint, if you can actually speak that honestly. And in a way that doesn’t, again, doesn’t defy the trust that we talked about earlier, you are gonna be so far ahead of your competitors.
Joe Sinnott, Jason Spiess
You know that again, you could spend all kinds of money on third parties and messaging and everything else having that human based conversation that’s gonna, that’s gonna do you wonder so anyway, I don’t know, did that even answer your question or did you just give me a chance yet again to, to just, you know, honestly you, you did and to me, it, it made the most sense just bringing in a third party, you know, just a
moderator, arbitrator, somebody that can, you know, see the both sides because, you know, I, I, obviously that’s, that’s what you do for a living or, or can do for a living.
Jason Spiess
That’s part of what you do. And so it’s a, it’s a great solution to, to that problem. We call that, I think a set and a spike in volleyball. but it’s, it’s needed right now. to me that, that’s the number one issue is communication. How do we move forward on these things? And, organizations like yours are solving problems and, you know, it, there’s time for shameless plugs and there’s time for real plugs and this is the time for one of those real plugs. So, how can people get in touch with
you and, and, and, you know, ask you if you’re qualified to tackle their, their problem that exists because we can’t have this many workforce issues and have $10 trillion pumped in the economy in the last three years without something without a communication problem. That’s, that’s, I mean, that’s a lot of money to be circulated around for workforce issues to happen. So, people need help, Joe and how can you help them?
Joe Sinnott
Yeah. Well, as far as how I can help, I think it comes down to a lot of what we talked about. Right. It’s helping them think more clearly, helping them think more innovatively and, and in many cases, helping them have a third party. That’s not complicated, that’s straightforward. I think you can tell from these conversations. You know, you’re, you’re going to get that mix of, of reality and, and, you know, if I need to put on my technical hat and think, you know, think, in, in ones and
zeros we can do that. But by and large challenging what you’re already doing to solve problems that have probably been occurring at your organization for years. That’s what I do. And so for, you know, oil and gas companies in particular who have a unique set of challenges, Jason, when it comes to talent, when it comes to leadership styles, when it comes to volatility, you know, if you’re in that world, then yeah, reach out.
If nothing else, like I said earlier, I like discussing the, you know, different types of problems that different organizations have and discussing all the different ways that companies have tried to tackle them so far and, you know, and in some ways that they, they think they’d like to go forward in terms of tackling those problems. And a big chunk of that is the, the type of coaching and leadership development services that I offer.
So that being said, Jason, if people want to reach out, the easiest way is good old winning partners dot com. W I TT ing partners, always happy to connect on linkedin, of course, and and any other means of conversation that people, people want to kick things off with. So, I don’t know that being said, Jason, yeah, I always happy to have those conversations and, and help, folks out, particularly in this industry however I can.
